[Ardour-Users] Ardour-Users Digest, Vol 167, Issue 13

[Adriano Petrosillo]

> We don't need analogue synths any more.  They were a shitty solution
> to a problem we no longer have.  It's better to do it all digitally.

Oscillators may be relatively easy to model. It's quite hard to recreate
the character certain filters have, on the other hand. When you push
filters into non-linear operation, they do not behave as in the textbooks.
Can you do this digitally? Of course you can, provided you put in the
effort, you have the CPU power to model their behaviour well enough, etc.
The thing is that few digital filters do and when you want the sound of the
Moog filter, the Korg filter, the Roland filter, the Polivoks filter (which
is particularly non-linear in actual operation) it gets complicated. If
you're not after certain things such as specific "character" then digital
synths are much better of course (cheaper, wider range of sounds, higher
polyphony, lower noise, no tuning issues, no drift, etc.). Mind you, in
music everything goes. Some people seek the character some very early
digital synths had because they were designed around low resolutions. (Lots
of '80s equipment had bit depths of 8 or 10).

OT: generally speaking, digital technology is a compromise; if it were
easier to design and build analogue computers for everything they'd be much
faster; sometimes they're the only practical way to do stuff (when you move
into the very high frequencies analogue filters are commonplace for
example). The problem with analogue technology is programmability (which
means you have to design each computer for one thing only basically), cost
(because of economy of scale and the fact that everything is bespoke),
precision (it is hard to obtain reproducible results) and noise.

Il 22 dic 2017 9:30 PM, <ardour-users-request at lists.ardour.org> ha scritto:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: modular synths -- was Re: analog summing (Ralf Mardorf)
>    2. Re: modular synths -- was Re: analog summing (Ralf Mardorf)
>    3. Re: modular synths -- was Re: analog summing (Ralf Mardorf)
>    4. Re: modular synths -- was Re: analog summing (Ralf Mardorf)
>    5. Re: modular synths -- was Re:  analog summing (Gordonjcp)
>    6. Re: modular synths -- was Re:  analog summing (Al Thompson)
>    7. Re: modular synths -- was Re:  analog summing (David Kastrup)
>    8. Re: modular synths -- was Re:  analog summing (Gordonjcp)
>    9. Re: modular synths -- was Re:  analog summing (Gordonjcp)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 19:34:29 +0100
> From: Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf at alice-dsl.net>
> To: Paul Davis <paul at linuxaudiosystems.com>
> Cc: Al Thompson <althompson58 at gmail.com>, ardour-users
>         <ardour-users at lists.ardour.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ardour-Users] modular synths -- was Re: analog summing
> Message-ID: <20171222193429.6359cc18 at archlinux.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 12:27:25 -0500, Paul Davis wrote:
> >On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Al Thompson <althompson58 at gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >?I would absolutely suggest that you do not start with any of these
> >artists :)
> >
> >These artists all have their particular mastery of synths, but they
> >play in a very particular style that puts the emphasis on "virtuosity"
> >and (with the general exception of wendy carlos) play fairly typical
> >keyboard styles in the context of "prog rock".
> >
> >A broad introduction to the sonic capabilities of analog synths needs
> >to go significantly beyond this particular
> >"synth+keyboard+virtuosic-performer" style.? It also may mean dropping
> >any non-analog-synth context (though this may be jarring for some),
> >and it may mean avoiding virtuosic performers, who despite their
> >skills, sometimes play "too much" if the goal is to appreciate what
> >the machine rather than the performer can do.
>
> +1
>
> I rather would recommend to listen to passages of e.g. some Jean Michel
> Jarre, Kraftwerk and perhaps even Beatles songs to experience some
> sounds that even after being recorded are still different in a
> positive way, compared to digital emulations. Even a not that good
> sound sampler as the Prophet 2000 or Studio 440 has got it's advantage
> compared with much better sound samplers, because of the unique analog
> sound.
>
> On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 15:27:49 +0000, Gordonjcp wrote:
> >Yes, I've owned and repaired analogue synths for years.
>
> Hard to believe. Often musicians are satisfied by a good emulation,
> then they decide to play their old synth again and after that they
> can't stand the emulation anymore.
>
> --
> $ pacman -Q linux{,-rt{,-cornflower,-pussytoes}}|awk '{print $2}'
> 4.14.7-1
> 4.14.6_rt7-1
> 4.11.12_rt16-1
> 4.14.6_rt7-1
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 20:08:16 +0100
> From: Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf at alice-dsl.net>
> To: Ardour users <ardour-users at lists.ardour.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ardour-Users] modular synths -- was Re: analog summing
> Message-ID: <20171222200816.3710b00e at archlinux.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 19:34:29 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> >I rather would recommend to listen to passages of e.g. some Jean Michel
> >Jarre, Kraftwerk and perhaps even Beatles songs
>
> Perhaps replace the Beatles with Grateful Dead or maybe Hawkwind ;),
> don't care about the compositions, just about what the synth are able to
> do. Even 80s chart music is good to experience the sound of analog
> synth, that can't be emulated yet. The music might be crap, the synth
> aren't crap and btw. in the 80s the tuning already was stable and it
> was possible to store and restore the sounds. Minimalistic music, but
> not necessarily crap: Regarding sound listen to e.g.
> Deutsch Amerikanische Freundschaft or regarding handling filters, while
> playing something stupid "Requiem" from Killing Joke.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 20:14:07 +0100
> From: Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf at alice-dsl.net>
> To: Ardour users <ardour-users at lists.ardour.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ardour-Users] modular synths -- was Re: analog summing
> Message-ID: <20171222201407.3df36a71 at archlinux.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 20:08:16 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> >or regarding handling filters, while playing something stupid
> >"Requiem" from Killing Joke
>
> Or wasn't it a filter, just adding a noise oscillator? I don't remember
> it. However, while the Killing Joke sound indeed isn't that
> fascinating, IOW an emulation could do the same, it could become tricky
> to manipulate emulations live, without making the desired sound
> unpleasant for the purpose. In my experiences, it's easier to control a
> real analog synth, than an emulation.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 20:32:13 +0100
> From: Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf at alice-dsl.net>
> To: ardour-users at lists.ardour.org
> Subject: Re: [Ardour-Users] modular synths -- was Re: analog summing
> Message-ID: <20171222203213.7338de4f at archlinux.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 20:14:07 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> >On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 20:08:16 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> >>or regarding handling filters, while playing something stupid
> >>"Requiem" from Killing Joke
> >
> >Or wasn't it a filter, just adding a noise oscillator? I don't remember
> >it. However, while the Killing Joke sound indeed isn't that
> >fascinating, IOW an emulation could do the same, it could become tricky
> >to manipulate emulations live, without making the desired sound
> >unpleasant for the purpose. In my experiences, it's easier to control a
> >real analog synth, than an emulation.
>
> Oops, nothing at all, just one tone that could be done by an emulation
> as well, but when searching for this Killing Joke song, you'll get tons
> of results of independent synth bands from that time. And from the same
> killing Joke album the "noise" in the song "War Dance" is nice, not
> necessarily done with a synth. However, the anlog sound of all
> instruments and recordings is incredible for that simpleness.
>
> OTOH there's an add "How To: Metallic Make-up Look f?r die Festtage!"
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0VslWm58gE
>
> Most likely done with emulations, but I've to admit the analog sound
> satisfies my needs (not the composition ;).
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 19:50:08 +0000
> From: Gordonjcp <gordonjcp at gjcp.net>
> To: ardour-users at lists.ardour.org
> Subject: Re: [Ardour-Users] modular synths -- was Re:  analog summing
> Message-ID: <20171222195008.GA18684 at ilyushin>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 12:03:24PM -0500, Al Thompson wrote:
> > On 12/22/2017 10:27 AM, Gordonjcp wrote:
> > >
> > >> maybe start here: https://youtu.be/kkMHprDW8PU?t=39000s
> > >>
> > >> I'm willing to bet that you can listen to this for at least 20min
> > >> without being bored :)
> > > That's not to my taste.  I can't listen to that seasicky
> > > kick-drum-pumping-pad stuff.
> > >
> >
> > I suggest you start by listening to some Emerson, Lake, and Palmer,
> > Yes,
> > Walter Carlos, Jan Hammer, and Trumvirat.
> >
>
> Are they doing anything that couldn't be done with a digital synth?
>
> We don't need analogue synths any more.  They were a shitty solution to
> a problem we no longer have.  It's better to do it all digitally.
>
> --
> Gordonjcp
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 15:02:31 -0500
> From: Al Thompson <althompson58 at gmail.com>
> To: ardour-users at lists.ardour.org
> Subject: Re: [Ardour-Users] modular synths -- was Re:  analog summing
> Message-ID: <5A3D64D7.6020000 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On 12/22/2017 02:50 PM, Gordonjcp wrote:
> >
> >> I suggest you start by listening to some Emerson, Lake, and Palmer,
> >> Yes,
> >> Walter Carlos, Jan Hammer, and Trumvirat.
> >>
> > Are they doing anything that couldn't be done with a digital synth?
> >
> > We don't need analogue synths any more.  They were a shitty solution to
> > a problem we no longer have.  It's better to do it all digitally.
> >
>
> I suppose you prefer digital drums and digital pianos over the real
> thing then, too?  And digital modeling amps over real tube amps?
>
> After all, they all sound kind of close to the real thing.
>
> I still find it curious that you describe real instruments as "static
> and lifeless," since those are terms that are nearly universally applied
> to the digital counterparts.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 21:14:55 +0100
> From: David Kastrup <dak at gnu.org>
> To: ardour-users at lists.ardour.org
> Subject: Re: [Ardour-Users] modular synths -- was Re:  analog summing
> Message-ID: <87tvwio6yo.fsf at fencepost.gnu.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Gordonjcp <gordonjcp at gjcp.net> writes:
>
> > On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 12:03:24PM -0500, Al Thompson wrote:
> >> On 12/22/2017 10:27 AM, Gordonjcp wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> maybe start here: https://youtu.be/kkMHprDW8PU?t=39000s
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm willing to bet that you can listen to this for at least 20min
> >> >> without being bored :)
> >> > That's not to my taste.  I can't listen to that seasicky
> >> > kick-drum-pumping-pad stuff.
> >> >
> >>
> >> I suggest you start by listening to some Emerson, Lake, and Palmer,
> >> Yes,
> >> Walter Carlos, Jan Hammer, and Trumvirat.
> >>
> >
> > Are they doing anything that couldn't be done with a digital synth?
> >
> > We don't need analogue synths any more.  They were a shitty solution
> > to a problem we no longer have.  It's better to do it all digitally.
>
> Except that it is rarely "done" digitally.  Most of the "digital"
> instruments are actually sampled real instruments.  Apparently the
> physical limitations and compromises entering into physical instrument
> construction lead, after instrument builders have done their best, to
> results that appeal to the listener.
>
> While a lot of graphics are done purely on computer these days,
> paintings are still executed manually.  Digital is king in
> _reproduction_.
>
> --
> David Kastrup
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 20:28:42 +0000
> From: Gordonjcp <gordonjcp at gjcp.net>
> To: ardour-users at lists.ardour.org
> Subject: Re: [Ardour-Users] modular synths -- was Re:  analog summing
> Message-ID: <20171222202842.GA18763 at ilyushin>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 03:02:31PM -0500, Al Thompson wrote:
> > On 12/22/2017 02:50 PM, Gordonjcp wrote:
> > >
> > >> I suggest you start by listening to some Emerson, Lake, and Palmer,
> > >> Yes,
> > >> Walter Carlos, Jan Hammer, and Trumvirat.
> > >>
> > > Are they doing anything that couldn't be done with a digital synth?
> > >
> > > We don't need analogue synths any more.  They were a shitty solution to
> > > a problem we no longer have.  It's better to do it all digitally.
> > >
> >
> > I suppose you prefer digital drums and digital pianos over the real
> > thing then, too?  And digital modeling amps over real tube amps?
>
> I don't play drums or piano so frankly I doubt I could tell the
> difference.
>
> Valve amps don't sound any different to transistor amps, and anyone who
> says they do quite honestly needs to lay off the cocaine for a while and
> get some perspective.
>
> --
> Gordonjcp
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 20:30:27 +0000
> From: Gordonjcp <gordonjcp at gjcp.net>
> To: ardour-users at lists.ardour.org
> Subject: Re: [Ardour-Users] modular synths -- was Re:  analog summing
> Message-ID: <20171222203027.GB18763 at ilyushin>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Fri, Dec 22, 2017 at 09:14:55PM +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> >
> > Except that it is rarely "done" digitally.  Most of the "digital"
> > instruments are actually sampled real instruments.  Apparently the
> > physical limitations and compromises entering into physical instrument
> > construction lead, after instrument builders have done their best, to
> > results that appeal to the listener.
>
> That's complete bollocks.  Look at the vast majority of softsynths, and
> "hardware" digital synths which are essentially the same kind of code
> running on a dedicated platform.
>
> *Maybe* you've got samples of single cycles of waveforms, but mostly the
> whole lot is synthesized numerically.
>
> --
> Gordonjcp
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of Ardour-Users Digest, Vol 167, Issue 13
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