[Ardour-Users] [64studio-users] Just a suggestion about how to handle bug reports

Gustin Johnson gustin at echostar.ca
Tue Dec 16 20:59:46 PST 2008

Hash: SHA1

Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> Gustin Johnson wrote:
>> So, if you look in to this, the Debian way is to contact package
>> maintainer, who then contacts upstream as necessary.
> Hm, why comes the testing with
> http://apt.64studio.com/64studio/testing/pool/main/j/jack-audio-connection-kit/jackd_0.103.0-6?
> And ...
>     * etch (stable) <http://packages.debian.org/etch/jackd> (sound):
>       JACK Audio-Verbindungs-Kit (Server und Beispielclients)
>       0.101.1-2: alpha amd64 arm hppa i386 ia64 mips mipsel powerpc s390
>       sparc
>     * etch-m68k <http://packages.debian.org/etch-m68k/jackd> (sound):
>       JACK Audio-Verbindungs-Kit (Server und Beispielclients)
>       0.101.1-2: m68k
>     * lenny (testing) <http://packages.debian.org/lenny/jackd> (sound):
>       JACK Audio-Verbindungs-Kit (Server und Beispielclients)
>       0.109.2-3: alpha amd64 arm armel hppa i386 ia64 mips mipsel
>       powerpc s390 sparc
>     * sid (unstable) <http://packages.debian.org/sid/jackd> (sound):
>       JACK Audio-Verbindungs-Kit (Server und Beispielclients)
>       0.116.1-1: alpha amd64 arm armel i386 kfreebsd-amd64 kfreebsd-i386
>       m68k mips powerpc s390 sparc
>       0.115.6-1: hppa ia64 mipsel
>       0.109.2-4: hurd-i386
I am not sure what you are asking.

> After my troubles yesterday with the Packman package-builder, because
> his package was broken, I won't ask a Debian package-builder. For Suse
> and Debian there seems to a problem, because JACK is split.
There are design difference between SuSe and Debian.

> 0.103 was a smart solution in the past, 0.109 might be no god solution
> for any time, but now the JACK developers which to see 0.116 for the
> distros.
>>> People reported that bug e.g. to the Ardour forums, a long time
>>> before I had this bug. There they say, it's a JACK bug, but this
>>> isn't true, it was a packman bug. http://ardour.org/node/2271
>> You did ask the question in the wrong place.  The person who gave the
>> correct answer actually did not do you any favours.
> No, I didn't ask at the Ardour forum, I asked at the LAD list. I
> couldn't ask the package-builder at Linux Club, were I met him, because
> he's a w....r. That's why I asked the LAD list. This package-builder is
> also at this list and he said I'm stupid, it's my fault, his package is
> good, nobody but me has this problem. The people from the Ardour forum
> are such "nobodies" like me. People checked it at the LAD list and
> everybody is "nobody", the package was invalid.

Very confusing.  It sounds like you were installing a 3rd party package,
which is who you should go to for support.
> This package-builder told me that all I do is wrong, even after it's
> 100% clear, that he did a bad job. He lied that makes music with Suse
> and his own packages. Why didn't he notice, that his package is broken?
> It's impossible that he can make music with his Suse, while he is using
> the packagees he build, because JACK was broken.
No idea, I do not use SuSe.

> I'm banned someone said, I didn't checked it, but I guess it's at Linux
> Club, where those people are moderators, I still can write to the LAD list.
> Yes, I build over and misbehaved, BUT for good reasons. NOBODY but me

You pay the price for misbehaving.  Regardless of the justification.

> reported that bug, to a forum were it is noticed by the right people,
> but they post it e.g. at the Ardour forum.
> It's not very clever what I did. I'm the evil now.
> There are a lot of people that say, that audio and MIDI is fine for
> them, even if they never have tested it.
For how I use it, MIDI has been fine for years.  I have yet to have the
time to construct your test case.

>> you do seem to find a very inflammatory way of communicating in English.
> Because I boiled over. The people at the Ardour forum didn't boil over,
> but nobody noticed them, so the package was still broken when I
> installed it days later. If I didn't boiled over, the package would be
> still broken.

Likely there is a limit to how successful this will be in the long run.
 Of course you are free to conduct yourself however you see fit.
>> It is easier to post your problems to a blog rather to figure out who
>> you need to talk to.  I am guilty of this as well.
> It wasn't allowed for other problems before, because I don't have the
> knowledge to handle Linux ;). 

Fortunately the tools and data are there to help us learn.

> I gave the complete verbose terminal
> outputs and it was posted i'm only talking about hwo bad Suse is and

verbose outputs generate a lot of noise in which the actual problem can
be hidden.  It would be better if you could that initial work.  If you
do not want to, then you will receive limited assistance.

> there will be no information about the problems, in the same post I got
> an answer to the verbose informations I posted.
> You can take a look a forums, it's often that way, it's not only me who
> has such problems.
>>> I got mails off-list, with statements similar to "I recently got
>>> raked over the coals by ...".
>> I can tell you it has happened to me on more than one occasion.  It is
>> even worse when it happens in real life by someone like Aaron Seigo in
>> front of your friends.  I may have considered the responses to be harsh,
>> but in every single case I learned something and came away better for
>> it.  There is an old saying "if you can't handle the heat, stay out of
>> the kitchen".
> And if all people stay out of the kitchen, nobody will cook. In the

Except that it is not the people who are complaining who are doing the
cooking.  Most of the people who are complaining are not contributing,
so there is no real loss IMO.

> Ardour forum there was no flame war, but the package wasn't repaired. I
> went into the kitchen and now the package should be repaired, resp. it
> became two packages, but I burned my fingers.
> If all people will stay out of the kitchen, Linux becomes a system from
> developers, for developers and there will be no users any more.

That is exactly how it all started, and exactly why it is all so useful.
 The developers are not constrained by sales targets, they make what
they want when they can.
>> You really should read this link or find a quality German translation.
>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
> "What we are, unapologetically, is hostile to people who seem to be
> unwilling to think or to do their own homework before asking questions.
> People like that are time sinks — they take without giving back, and
> they waste time we could have spent on another question more interesting
> and another person more worthy of an answer. We call people like this
> “losers” (and for historical reasons we sometimes spell it “lusers”)."
> Some people think they are hackers, but they are still losers. You can
> often read that a newbie has no screen or only boot into text mode.
> Those Pseudo-Hackers come with the most absurd hints. If a moderator
> wish to help he should do so, if he don't like to help, he shouldn't
> help, that's okay, but often they don't like to help, they only make
> clear, that Linux is for some very special people.

Exactly!  These special people are described in the paragraphs that
immediately follow the one you quoted:

"We realize that there are many people who just want to use the software
we write, and who have no interest in learning technical details. For
most people, a computer is merely a tool, a means to an end; they have
more important things to do and lives to live. We acknowledge that, and
don't expect everyone to take an interest in the technical matters that
fascinate us. Nevertheless, our style of answering questions is tuned
for people who do take such an interest and are willing to be active
participants in problem-solving. That's not going to change. Nor should
it; if it did, we would become less effective at the things we do best.

We're (largely) volunteers. We take time out of busy lives to answer
questions, and at times we're overwhelmed with them. So we filter
ruthlessly. In particular, we throw away questions from people who
appear to be losers in order to spend our question-answering time more
efficiently, on winners.

If you find this attitude obnoxious, condescending, or arrogant, check
your assumptions. We're not asking you to genuflect to us — in fact,
most of us would love nothing more than to deal with you as an equal and
welcome you into our culture, if you put in the effort required to make
that possible. But it's simply not efficient for us to try to help
people who are not willing to help themselves. It's OK to be ignorant;
it's not OK to play stupid.

So, while it isn't necessary to already be technically competent to get
attention from us, it is necessary to demonstrate the kind of attitude
that leads to competence — alert, thoughtful, observant, willing to be
an active partner in developing a solution. If you can't live with this
sort of discrimination, we suggest you pay somebody for a commercial
support contract instead of asking hackers to personally donate help to you.

If you decide to come to us for help, you don't want to be one of the
losers. You don't want to seem like one, either. The best way to get a
rapid and responsive answer is to ask it like a person with smarts,
confidence, and clues who just happens to need help on one particular

This really says it all.
> Has anybody ever thought about, why some mistakes are made by nearly
> every newbie?

Yes, that is why nearly every project has an FAQ.  It is also why Eric
Steven Raymond put together that rather long piece I keep pointing you to.
>>> PS: I have a bad conscience because I wrote this troll like stuff. I
>> So, you know that you write troll like stuff, and are still surprised by
>> the hostile response?
> Yes, but I don't like this measurement. And it's not different to that,
> what the moderators do, I met, resp, it differs, I never lied.
Live by the sword, die by the sword.  If you act like a jerk, expect
hostility in return.  Yes this Open source world can be frustrating, but
that is no excuse to act like a jerk.  Period.
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