[ardour-dev] cd markers patch

[R Parker]

--- nick mainsbridge <beatroot at optushome.com.au>
wrote:

> On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 06:27 -0800, R Parker wrote:
> > --- nick mainsbridge <beatroot at optushome.com.au>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 12:39 -0800, R Parker
> wrote:
> > > <snip>
> > > > I think an argument can be made for wanting to
> > > export
> > > > CUE and TOC files without exporting audio. The
> > > audio
> > > > has been exported but the TOC or CUE start and
> > > > duration times have been adjusted.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > i agree. this is, however, a difficult option.
> > > ardour doesn't know the
> > > name of the audio file you're talking about in
> this
> > > case.
> > 
> > CD markers are currently part of
> sessionname.ardour. I
> > assumed your solution was expanding upon this
> model to
> > include TOC metadata.
> > 
> > I don't know how anyone else organizes many
> clients
> > and their respective sessions but I use a script
> to
> > add a toplevel client dir with a series of
> subdirs:
> > [studio at stepdaddy clients]$ ls r_apocolypse/
> > aiff     artwork  master  multitrack  README   wav
> > archive  lyrics   mp3     ogg
> > 
> > [studio at stepdaddy clients]$ ls
> r_apocolypse/master/
> > cd.toc  cd.toc.bck  master01.wav  master.jam
> > 
> > I can't afford to have any confusion and never do.
> > 
> 
> fair enough.
> 
> >  of course you
> > > could browse for the audiofile to make a TOC
> for,
> > > but that would make
> > > the process error-prone and time consuming.
> > 
> > Based on my assumptions about what you're doing
> and my
> > methods for organization I don't understand this.
> > 
> >  also,
> > > the ui would begin to
> > > suck. much easier to export the whole thing
> again,
> > > no?
> > 
> > If you're expanding on the current feature then
> all
> > information is part of sessionname.ardour. I don't
> > know how this would change the UI. 
> > 
> 
> one way, everything happens as if by magic. the
> "manually selecting the
> audio file" thing requires knowledge of what you're
> doing. if a user
> doesn't have this prerequisite, then for them the ui
> will suck ('when i
> try to export a CD marker track, a file dialog
> opens. what do i do
> now?').
> 
> 
> > > hmm.
> > > i'll tell you what - let me know when you
> actually
> > > need to do this.
> > > we'll see how frequently you wish it were there.
> > 
> > I'm mastering a 15 song, an 11 song, and a couple
> > other albums of undetermined song count now. It
> > happens alot from what I can tell. The 11 song
> album
> > was released six months ago. Since the release a
> > reissue has been ordered with a request for a new
> > master where the only changes are in the TOC. It
> > currently takes a second to export the CD markers.
> To
> > export the whole album probably takes between five
> and
> > 10 minutes.
> > 
> > It often seems that mastering preceeds final
> artwork.
> > This happens all the time. So, the master TOC is
> > commonly using working titles for songs. I'm
> trying to
> > think about it and can't recall an exception.
> > 
> 
> if you change the track order, don't you have to
> export the audio file
> again?

At first glance you would think so but that might not
be true. The TOC uses start and duration times to
describe where a song begins. I suspect there's
nothing to prevent song 01 start point from being
00:33:00:02 while song 10 start point is
00:00:00:02--pre-gap defined in frames works. I'll
test this later today and let you know.

A method of layout for the master .wav file is to
leave extra space between songs. Because Start and End
markers describe Start and duration, this enables us
to adjust timing between songs in the TOC without
burning a new .wav file. That's more a userland
strategy than a developer issue but it's another
example for avoiding Export.

I'll play with both these ideas later today.

> > > <snip>
> > > 
> > > > In the case of a TOC file, do you envision
> > > handling
> > > > the many text fields[1]? Aside from a text
> editor,
> > > can
> > > > you suggest another tool for editing TOC
> files?
> > > > 
> > > it seems that mastering studios rarely use these
> (in
> > > this country,
> > > anyway). the priority for me is to enable entry
> of
> > > the catalog number,
> > > isrc and scms. once this is working, it should
> be
> > > pretty simple to add
> > > other fields. 
> > 
> > Who writes the TOC if not the mastering engineer?
> I
> > don't think we want to trust the duplication
> house.
> > Have you looked at freecddb.org? It's an example
> of
> > why we want TOC files that have all metadata. When
> the
> > CD is put into a player that has a display the
> album
> > title, performer, song title are all scrolled on
> the
> > display. That information and much more goes into
> the
> > CDDB databases and is used for gathering
> information
> > about the album. A TOC with track 01, track 02,
> > ...track 11 just doesn't fly. At least not in my
> > world.
> > 
> firstly, that information is *only* stored on the
> cddb. the ISRC of the
> track and the catalog number of the CD are used to
> access it.
> CD players don't know anything about track names or
> songwriters.

Of course CD players don't but watch a client smile
when their titles scroll through the player display.
Reguardless, isn't it better to include all metadata
within the TOC as opposed to manually recreating it at
places like freecddb.org?

When I burn CDs at the studio, I generate a studio
J-Card with song titles, duration, contact
information, dates, and everything else that can help
my client keep track of their project. Alot of this
information can be extracted from the TOC. I've got
one album sittin here that we've been working on for
two years. 

If I had my way about it, there would be calendars,
billing software and a fax applications in Ardour.
Maybe the guy writing songs in his bedroom can't
appreciate this rediculous joke. However, guys in my
position will scratch their heads, laugh and mutter,
"yea, no shit dude." Reguardless, Ardour is a DAW and
combined with JAMin it is a start to finish audio
workstation. Well, it will be when you marry libburn
into it. :) There might only be a few of us doing
Export from an Ardour JAMin return bus but in the
future there will be alot of people doing it.

> but forget all that.. you have me convinced. i'll
> try to do it, ok?

Honestly, I think it's the right thing to do and I
didn't start thinking about this yesterday. I've been
mastering with Ardour and JAMin for a fair amount of
time and have seen numerous projects go from start to
finish. I'm just a luser in the Ardour world but if I
were a programmer the things we're talking about would
have been done six or eight months ago.

I do appreciate you putting up with me.

ron

> this is the funny thing, though. i have a printout
> here from a well-
> renowned mastering studio, and it says 'brandname
> pre-mastering system'
> on the top. note the 'pre' bit. it seems that the
> dupe plant actually
> re-encode the PQ data and just keep the audio from
> the mastering house!
> they rely on this printout with all the information
> you described on it
> (actually more.. things like PQ start offset and PQ
> end offset). who
> would've thunk??
> 
> 
> > > > I am suggesting that editing TOC fields is a
> > > > capability from which Ardour will benefit. I
> am
> > > > pleading with you to implement it. Pretty
> please!
> > > If
> > > > you don't do it, and we ever meet, I will hug
> you.
> > > > Take my advice and do not wish this upon
> yourself.
> > > :)
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > to avoid this outcome, i'm now seriously
> considering
> > > it.
> > 
> > It's all about The Art of Negotiation.
> >  
> 
> true.
> 
> > > > Seriously, TOC field editing will save users a
> > > > significant amount of time.
> > > > 
> > > 
> 
=== message truncated ===



		
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