[Ardour-Users] Ardour-Users Digest, Vol 167, Issue 4

Sun Dec 17 07:36:41 PST 2017

(Brainfart: DC is represented by digital signals, it's one of the two
bounds that isn't. Can't remember which).

Il 17 dic 2017 4:34 PM, "Adriano Petrosillo" <ampetrosillo at gmail.com> ha
scritto:

> There are no stair steps. There are very thin lines (so thin their
> thickness tends to zero) spaced 1/samplerate seconds apart. In fact a
> 44100Hz sample rate actually produces signals with components well beyond
> half the sample rate, so further away than that upper limit that it extends
> to infinity (both sides). It's just that there are infinite copies of
> whatever happens in [-22050,22050] / {0}.
>
> Problem is, no equipment is so fast to respond to this representation, so
> it will invariably end up being smoothed. Even if there were such
> equipment, our eardrums would be too slow to respond and this would happen
> in our ear canal basically.
>
> :P
>
> Il 17 dic 2017 4:25 PM, <ardour-users-request at lists.ardour.org> ha
> scritto:
>
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: analog summing (Ralf Mardorf)
>>    2. Re: analog summing (Matt Keys)
>>    3. Re: analog summing (Niko Efthymiou)
>>    4. Re: analog summing (Robin Gareus)
>>    5. Re: analog summing (Ricardus Vincente)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 14:06:12 +0100
>> From: Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf at alice-dsl.net>
>> To: ardour-users at lists.ardour.org
>> Subject: Re: [Ardour-Users] analog summing
>> Message-ID: <20171217140612.5849057d at archlinux.localdomain>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>>
>> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:35:49 +0000, Matt Keys wrote:
>> >I'm not really trying to do anything at the moment other than
>> >understand when and why you'd want to use something like the 2-bus
>> >(http://dangerousmusic.com/product/2-bus-plus/), or how it is
>> >different than for example the stereo main outs of a 16 channel analog
>> >mixer? Is the extra 'color' claim completely bullshit?
>>
>> Most important for the mix are the used power cords, see
>> https://www.thomann.de/gb/vovox_initio_power_180.htm?ref=
>> search_rslt_powercord_251685 ;D.
>>
>> IOW it most likely is bullshit! Indeed analog gear could improve the
>> sound, in the same way as digital equipment could improve the sound.
>> However, to improve the audio quality you need to take care of the
>> complete sound chain. Perhaps replacing a pro-sumer audio interface by
>> a professional audio interface is a good starting point. Or replacing a
>> cheap microchip based mixing console by a more expensive, discrete
>> circuit based mixing console. Or ...
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 13:16:17 +0000
>> From: Matt Keys <matt at mattkeys.net>
>> To: "ardour-users at lists.ardour.org" <ardour-users at lists.ardour.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Ardour-Users] analog summing
>> Message-ID:
>>         <DM5PR19MB09559DFD1E8FCFFA1ED68B7AAF090 at DM5PR19MB0955.namprd
>> 19.prod.outlook.com>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> lol at the power cable! I was catching a whiff of bs on statements like
>> these ..
>>
>>
>> "Mixing ?in the box??aka ?ITB??has been noted by many users as having
>> apparent limitations, which are commonly described as ?lack of headroom,?
>> ?poor spacial imaging,? ?loss of low level detail,? and ?inadequate
>> preservation of transients.?
>>
>> "A line mixer or console on the other hand performs several tasks-
>> summing, level balancing (faders), spatial placement (panners), and aux
>> routing of tracks.  To put it simply, if it has a level control and/or a
>> panner on the inputs it is a line mixer, not a summing amplifier. These
>> functions are already happening in the DAW, so repeating them in the
>> hardware domain on the back-end is detrimental for 2 primary reasons-
>>
>> 1. Instant Recall capability is lost.
>>
>> 2. Running your audio through unnecessary components compromises the
>> signal path."
>>
>> I guess I'm not alone? :)
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Ardour-Users <ardour-users-bounces at lists.ardour.org> on behalf of
>> Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf at alice-dsl.net>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:06 AM
>> To: ardour-users at lists.ardour.org
>> Subject: Re: [Ardour-Users] analog summing
>>
>> On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:35:49 +0000, Matt Keys wrote:
>> >I'm not really trying to do anything at the moment other than
>> >understand when and why you'd want to use something like the 2-bus
>> >(http://dangerousmusic.com/product/2-bus-plus/), or how it is
>> [https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.h1zHTUVvESqzt-W1F5Z7LAEsCz&pid=Api]<
>> http://dangerousmusic.com/product/2-bus-plus/>
>>
>> 2-BUS+ - Dangerous Music<http://dangerousmusic.com/product/2-bus-plus/>
>> dangerousmusic.com
>> Surpassing The Original
>>
>>
>>
>> >different than for example the stereo main outs of a 16 channel analog
>> >mixer? Is the extra 'color' claim completely bullshit?
>>
>> Most important for the mix are the used power cords, see
>> https://www.thomann.de/gb/vovox_initio_power_180.htm?ref=
>> search_rslt_powercord_251685 ;D.
>>
>> IOW it most likely is bullshit! Indeed analog gear could improve the
>> sound, in the same way as digital equipment could improve the sound.
>> However, to improve the audio quality you need to take care of the
>> complete sound chain. Perhaps replacing a pro-sumer audio interface by
>> a professional audio interface is a good starting point. Or replacing a
>> cheap microchip based mixing console by a more expensive, discrete
>> circuit based mixing console. Or ...
>> _______________________________________________
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 14:25:15 +0100
>> From: Niko Efthymiou <nefthy at nefthy.de>
>> To: ardour-users at lists.ardour.org
>> Subject: Re: [Ardour-Users] analog summing
>> Message-ID: <a64f322e-a844-bf65-b4b1-57af23905937 at nefthy.de>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>
>> On 17.12.2017 14:06, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> > On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:35:49 +0000, Matt Keys wrote:
>> >> I'm not really trying to do anything at the moment other than
>> >> understand when and why you'd want to use something like the 2-bus
>> >> (http://dangerousmusic.com/product/2-bus-plus/), or how it is
>> >> different than for example the stereo main outs of a 16 channel analog
>> >> mixer? Is the extra 'color' claim completely bullshit?
>> >
>> > IOW it most likely is bullshit!
>>
>> Not sure about that, it seems to do some sort of soft clipping, which
>> adds distortion. Distortion is still a domain where analog is king.
>>
>> There also seems to be a transformer inside, these are also notoriously
>> hard to emulate in the digital domain and they sometimes do good things
>> (which is always very subjective) to sound.
>>
>> But yeah, the price seems to be way of into snake oil land... 3.6k?...
>> You can buy quite a lot of great sounding gear with that money.
>>
>>
>> Greets Niko
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 14:54:55 +0100
>> From: Robin Gareus <robin at gareus.org>
>> To: "ardour-users at lists.ardour.org" <ardour-users at lists.ardour.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Ardour-Users] analog summing
>> Message-ID: <9384aa5c-b2d2-d88e-2e7f-b1d65d412ac3 at gareus.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>> On 12/17/2017 01:17 PM, Matt Keys wrote:
>> > When is it appropriate, if ever, to use analog summation in the
>> > signal chain into Ardour? Is there a difference between analog
>> > summation using mixer output into the daw versus mixer output to a
>> > device like the dangerous labs 2-bus and then into the daw? I'm
>> > having difficulty understanding the whole 'more headroom' or 'more
>> > dimension' claims.
>>
>> This particular device is from 1999. Back then those days it was common
>> to use fixed-point integer arithmetic for audio summing on PCs, usually
>> 16 bit resolution ~= 96dB.
>>
>> Not only does fixed-point clip when you exceed 0dBFS but with a large
>> amount of tracks it is no not very convenient to work with.
>>
>>
>> These days almost all DAWs use 32bit floating point for internal summing
>> (which can represent ~1530dB full-range, or just the 24bit sign+mantissa
>> 144dB). With floating point arithmetics you can safely exceed 0dBFS
>> during summing (as long as you lower the signal before it is converted
>> to analog). Also the quantization noise when you apply gain-changes is
>> completely negligible or zero.
>> You can conveniently record tracks at, say, -30dBFS or -20dBFS (plenty
>> of headroom, no risk of clipping on the input) and don't bother about
>> the noise-floor or artifacts when summing.
>>
>> In short: there's no need for external summing gear and most of it is
>> just snake-oil.
>>
>> One valid case for using some external gear for summing is to add
>> non-linearities (and noise). Same reason why some guitarists prefer
>> Tube-amps. Although there do exist some quite good plugin emulations or
>> modeled channelstrips for "analog warmth". YMMV
>>
>>
>> While not directly relevant to summing, I highly recommend to spend
>> 20mins on https://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml  It's one of the best
>> explanations of bit-depth, dithering and overall basic concepts every
>> audio-engineer should know.
>>
>> Cheers!
>> robin
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 10:24:40 -0500
>> From: Ricardus Vincente <wizardofgosz at gmail.com>
>> To: "ardour-users at lists.ardour.org" <ardour-users at lists.ardour.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Ardour-Users] analog summing
>> Message-ID: <7956cbce-b105-720f-8165-a8424d115272 at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>> On 12/17/2017 08:54 AM, Robin Gareus wrote:
>>
>> > One valid case for using some external gear for summing is to add
>> > non-linearities (and noise). Same reason why some guitarists prefer
>> > Tube-amps. Although there do exist some quite good plugin emulations or
>> > modeled channelstrips for "analog warmth". YMMV
>>
>>  Absolutely. If you want that harmonic distortion that humans
>> psycho-acoustically refer to as warmth, sum through a really cool
>> vintage console like a Neve. But they're many tens of thousands of
>> dollars, so just go with the plugs, or nothing at all.
>>
>> > While not directly relevant to summing, I highly recommend to spend
>> > 20mins on https://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml  It's one of the best
>> > explanations of bit-depth, dithering and overall basic concepts every
>> > audio-engineer should know.
>>
>>  Monty's videos are my go-to videos when I don't want to have to
>> explain, for the 100th time, that there are no stair steps, which these
>> days, is every time.
>>
>>  Another great video I use whenever someone keeps shoveling heaps of
>> audio snake-oil into conversations is this one, on audio myths:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of Ardour-Users Digest, Vol 167, Issue 4
>> ********************************************
>>
>
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