[ardour-dev] **Caution-External**: Re: Live Mixdown

[Polashek, Matthew]

>>>
Some responses here.
>>>

Fortunately, I'm not stuck with any given hardware configuration as yet,

except that there is a set of passive main speakers and two monitor's 
presently. I think that's heading toward active monitors and mains, but
it's 
just poor me paying for it, at first.  I'm a real stickler for proper 
monitor control being one of the biggest needs to a solid sounding 
performance and stage ambience is non-existing for in-ear monitors.

>>>
The beauty of Ardour is that you cam make as many mixes as you want.
>>>

My only concern in that instance, is a gross feedback event coupled with
a 
VNC loss, but I can do an infrared deadman's switch easy enough.

>>>
Or put a hardware feed back eliminator in the loop.
>>>

My threshold for latency would be <10 milliseconds max, preferably 5,
but in 
a good size room, most won't hear 10.

>>>
The audio latency will not be effected by the VNC.  The audio will stay
on stage, so depending on your kernel and your EFX, you have a
theoretical minimum of 1.5 milliseconds I believe.
>>>

8-O I'm wondering then, why the Gain controls would not function in that

instance?

>>>
The Ardour gain controls will work fine, but the hardware converter may
have a physical gain control, as in the case to the Berhringer ADA8000,
which you will not be able to control from Ardour.  If you have a source
on stage that increases it's volume beyond your input attenuation,
you'll get a clip on the A/D which will sound unpleasant.  If you have a
card with a soft gain, then you're all set.  I haven't heard of a Mic
pre with a soft gain pot though.
>>>

  VNC is simply remoting the mouse/key states between two machines, 
yes?  For however Ardour handles the gain command in a pseudo-analog
slider 
or dial, to the related sound card, it would still obey the remote
command 
every bit as local, would it not?

>>>
You are correct here.
>>>

-----Original Message-----
From: Urbansound [mailto:urbansound at sbcglobal.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 7:51 PM
To: ardour-dev at lists.ardour.org
Subject: Re: [ardour-dev] **Caution-External**: Re: Live Mixdown

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ardour-dev-bounces at lists.ardour.org
> [mailto:ardour-dev-bounces at lists.ardour.org] On Behalf Of Polashek,
> Matthew
> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 10:19 AM
> To: Wolfgang Woehl
> Cc: ardour-dev at lists.ardour.org
> Subject: **Caution-External**: Re: [ardour-dev] Live Mixdown
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ardour-dev-bounces at lists.ardour.org
> [mailto:ardour-dev-bounces at lists.ardour.org] On Behalf Of Wolfgang
Woehl
> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:27 AM
> To: ardour-dev at lists.ardour.org
> Subject: Re: [ardour-dev] Live Mixdown
>
> "Urbansound" <urbansound at sbcglobal.net>:
>> My desire is to consider Ardour in a live, 32 channel, audio control
>> system in a small entertainment house, extending real inputs as low
>> impedance XLR type microphone inputs and high impedance instrument
>> inputs.  The output side would be 4 channels out to discrete monitor
>> channels and 3 channels main output to main amp, (main = Left/Right,
>> plus sub-woofer).


> Perhaps it might make sense to use VNC to accomplish this.  It could
be
> less expensive than buying a snake.  A VNC machine at FOH and a
monster
> Linux or OSX box onstage with a hammerfall 96/52 or something could do
> well.  The question you get into, if you have RME hardware is whether
is
> makes sense to use Ardour when you have the HDSP mixer.  Ardour,
> obviously has EFX, but the HDSP mixer can get you zero latency.  Any
> thoughts on this, folks?

Hi Matthew and thank you for your reply.

I suppose the VNC approach would work, wouldn't it?.  ;-)  LOL.
Definitely 
a budget move.

Fortunately, I'm not stuck with any given hardware configuration as yet,

except that there is a set of passive main speakers and two monitor's 
presently. I think that's heading toward active monitors and mains, but
it's 
just poor me paying for it, at first.  I'm a real stickler for proper 
monitor control being one of the biggest needs to a solid sounding 
performance and stage ambience is non-existing for in-ear monitors.

>>>
The beauty of Ardour is that you cam make as many mixes as you want.
>>>

The FOH will not have a hardware "mixer" present at all, only the VNC 
terminal as we discuss it here and perhaps a wireless link to the stage
box 
where Ardour is running.  That does simplify things tremendously and
remains 
perceivably portable.

My only concern in that instance, is a gross feedback event coupled with
a 
VNC loss, but I can do an infrared deadman's switch easy enough.

>>>
Or put a hardware feed back eliminator in the loop.
>>>

  For the 
sake of good set-up, the only time I ever see even slight feedback is
during 
training, where we teach others how to avoid, but contend, just in case.
A 
proper amplifier configuration "Should" trip out on such an event
anyhow, 
but well after damage in many cases.

My threshold for latency would be <10 milliseconds max, preferably 5,
but in 
a good size room, most won't hear 10.

>>>
The audio latency will not be effected by the VNC.  The audio will stay
on stage, so depending on your kernel and your EFX, you have a
theoretical minimum of 1.5 milliseconds I believe.
>>>

> It is important to note that you will not be able to adjust the gain
of
> your A/D from FOH using VNC or with a digital snake, though you could
> save lots in hardware costs.

8-O I'm wondering then, why the Gain controls would not function in that

instance?

>>>
The Ardour gain controls will work fine, but the hardware converter may
have a physical gain control, as in the case to the Berhringer ADA8000,
which you will not be able to control from Ardour.  If you have a source
on stage that increases it's volume beyond your input attenuation,
you'll get a clip on the A/D which will sound unpleasant.  If you have a
card with a soft gain, then you're all set.  I haven't heard of a Mic
pre with a soft gain pot though.
>>>

  VNC is simply remoting the mouse/key states between two machines, 
yes?  For however Ardour handles the gain command in a pseudo-analog
slider 
or dial, to the related sound card, it would still obey the remote
command 
every bit as local, would it not?

>>>
You are correct here.
>>>

  I suppose that may depend on the sound 
card and preamp setups, but would VNC really affect any of this, or is
that 
simply the case where a digital snake is carrying audio data only?


> Also, if you're like most engineers,
> you'll want lots of channels of compression on the mic signals.  I
> haven't found an A/D that has an insert yet, so unless you are using
an
> analog board with inserts for a mic pre, the ADA8000 is quite
limiting.
> Of course you could just set the gains really low and use Ardour for
> compression, but you might have noise issues if you have to boost the
> gain too much.

Indeed, some of the benefits I'm hoping  for with Ardour, are the live 
compressor/delay/reverb potential of such a system and localizing it on 
stage, given the VNC concept, especially.  Voice quality and delay
control 
are two key factors, where cancellation can be a bugger to fix on 
drums/symbols, for example.

My last efforts with cakewalk, had very little contention for noise and
gain 
behaved more or less appropriately, although I lightly gate the main
output 
slightly anyhow.  I try always to run the -3db approach and let the rest
of 
the tools adding gain, to take me up to -1.5, leaving still 1.5 still
for 
overdubbing later.

However, when a mic or instrument tends to have a little noise, discrete

control of the gain is the only way to improve signal-to-noise.  Given I

have control of the setting, I'm less concerned as opposed to
controlling 
different rock bands in public, on the weekends.

> Another interesting option would be to use a control surface in
> conjunction with VNC and a long MIDI run.

Don't like the long MIDI run approach where levels can invite drops or 
demand repeaters adding the potential of component failure or data 
corruption.  A control surface would be nice, or a roller ball that
selects 
the device, then becoming subject to the surface control maybe.  I could

probably hack that in coding some Pascal, but a whole grid type surface 
would be a tad much, I would think.

> Is Jack over the network  working with Linux?

Not sure


> X has a MIDI network option in core MIDI so maybe
> Ardour and OSX/Controler with VNC over WIFI could be cool.  For that
> matter, if we're looking at VNC and Ardour on OSX, the earlier MOTU
> stuff, like the 2401 MK1 and a 1224 with the PCI 424 and a couple
> ADA8000s will give you what you need for not too much bread.  It
should
> be noted that Ardour for OSX, while working great on my machine is
still
> slightly not quite ready for prime time as the MIDI is somewhat
> difficult to get working and you have to run it on X11, though 2.0
will
> fix this, I hope.

I try to look for a simple diagram of components and include the
software 
scenario in it.   As yet, I have not found adequate benefit for OSX over

Slackware but a whole lot of folks trying to get OSX to integrate well
with 
many things.  I do understand OSX networking to have some advantages for

very dense network demands, i.e. cluster systems.


> Also, I've researched installing a touch screen to run ardour.  They
> tend to get pricey, but could be great as I'm leery of mousing around
in
> a club.

With my affinity for multi-monitors, I can see VNC - touch screen being
a 
whole new project!!  LOL.


Last... I have a couple of 600 mghz servers to play with, before buying
the 
real thing.  They report having 256 meg of RAM available so I should be
able 
to launch Ardour no problem and then see what I can get away with just
on 
dual stereo cards. How much processor demand occurs has a lot to do with

cards and effects, I know and it takes clock cycles for each channel per

affects module.    Any thoughts on that approach or has anyone
benchmarked 
recommendations for horsepower per channel, even roughly?

Thank you for your comments Matthew.

Mike


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ardour-dev-bounces at lists.ardour.org
> [mailto:ardour-dev-bounces at lists.ardour.org] On Behalf Of Wolfgang
Woehl
> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:27 AM
> To: ardour-dev at lists.ardour.org
> Subject: Re: [ardour-dev] Live Mixdown
>
> "Urbansound" <urbansound at sbcglobal.net>:
>> My desire is to consider Ardour in a live, 32 channel, audio control
>> system in a small entertainment house, extending real inputs as low
>> impedance XLR type microphone inputs and high impedance instrument
>> inputs.  The output side would be 4 channels out to discrete monitor
>> channels and 3 channels main output to main amp, (main = Left/Right,
>> plus sub-woofer).