[ardour-dev] **Caution-External**: Re: Live Mixdown

[Urbansound]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ardour-dev-bounces at lists.ardour.org
> [mailto:ardour-dev-bounces at lists.ardour.org] On Behalf Of Polashek,
> Matthew
> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 10:19 AM
> To: Wolfgang Woehl
> Cc: ardour-dev at lists.ardour.org
> Subject: **Caution-External**: Re: [ardour-dev] Live Mixdown
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ardour-dev-bounces at lists.ardour.org
> [mailto:ardour-dev-bounces at lists.ardour.org] On Behalf Of Wolfgang Woehl
> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:27 AM
> To: ardour-dev at lists.ardour.org
> Subject: Re: [ardour-dev] Live Mixdown
>
> "Urbansound" <urbansound at sbcglobal.net>:
>> My desire is to consider Ardour in a live, 32 channel, audio control
>> system in a small entertainment house, extending real inputs as low
>> impedance XLR type microphone inputs and high impedance instrument
>> inputs.  The output side would be 4 channels out to discrete monitor
>> channels and 3 channels main output to main amp, (main = Left/Right,
>> plus sub-woofer).


> Perhaps it might make sense to use VNC to accomplish this.  It could be
> less expensive than buying a snake.  A VNC machine at FOH and a monster
> Linux or OSX box onstage with a hammerfall 96/52 or something could do
> well.  The question you get into, if you have RME hardware is whether is
> makes sense to use Ardour when you have the HDSP mixer.  Ardour,
> obviously has EFX, but the HDSP mixer can get you zero latency.  Any
> thoughts on this, folks?

Hi Matthew and thank you for your reply.

I suppose the VNC approach would work, wouldn't it?.  ;-)  LOL.  Definitely 
a budget move.

Fortunately, I'm not stuck with any given hardware configuration as yet, 
except that there is a set of passive main speakers and two monitor's 
presently. I think that's heading toward active monitors and mains, but it's 
just poor me paying for it, at first.  I'm a real stickler for proper 
monitor control being one of the biggest needs to a solid sounding 
performance and stage ambience is non-existing for in-ear monitors.

The FOH will not have a hardware "mixer" present at all, only the VNC 
terminal as we discuss it here and perhaps a wireless link to the stage box 
where Ardour is running.  That does simplify things tremendously and remains 
perceivably portable.

My only concern in that instance, is a gross feedback event coupled with a 
VNC loss, but I can do an infrared deadman's switch easy enough.  For the 
sake of good set-up, the only time I ever see even slight feedback is during 
training, where we teach others how to avoid, but contend, just in case.  A 
proper amplifier configuration "Should" trip out on such an event anyhow, 
but well after damage in many cases.

My threshold for latency would be <10 milliseconds max, preferably 5, but in 
a good size room, most won't hear 10.

> It is important to note that you will not be able to adjust the gain of
> your A/D from FOH using VNC or with a digital snake, though you could
> save lots in hardware costs.

8-O I'm wondering then, why the Gain controls would not function in that 
instance?  VNC is simply remoting the mouse/key states between two machines, 
yes?  For however Ardour handles the gain command in a pseudo-analog slider 
or dial, to the related sound card, it would still obey the remote command 
every bit as local, would it not?  I suppose that may depend on the sound 
card and preamp setups, but would VNC really affect any of this, or is that 
simply the case where a digital snake is carrying audio data only?


> Also, if you're like most engineers,
> you'll want lots of channels of compression on the mic signals.  I
> haven't found an A/D that has an insert yet, so unless you are using an
> analog board with inserts for a mic pre, the ADA8000 is quite limiting.
> Of course you could just set the gains really low and use Ardour for
> compression, but you might have noise issues if you have to boost the
> gain too much.

Indeed, some of the benefits I'm hoping  for with Ardour, are the live 
compressor/delay/reverb potential of such a system and localizing it on 
stage, given the VNC concept, especially.  Voice quality and delay control 
are two key factors, where cancellation can be a bugger to fix on 
drums/symbols, for example.

My last efforts with cakewalk, had very little contention for noise and gain 
behaved more or less appropriately, although I lightly gate the main output 
slightly anyhow.  I try always to run the -3db approach and let the rest of 
the tools adding gain, to take me up to -1.5, leaving still 1.5 still for 
overdubbing later.

However, when a mic or instrument tends to have a little noise, discrete 
control of the gain is the only way to improve signal-to-noise.  Given I 
have control of the setting, I'm less concerned as opposed to controlling 
different rock bands in public, on the weekends.

> Another interesting option would be to use a control surface in
> conjunction with VNC and a long MIDI run.

Don't like the long MIDI run approach where levels can invite drops or 
demand repeaters adding the potential of component failure or data 
corruption.  A control surface would be nice, or a roller ball that selects 
the device, then becoming subject to the surface control maybe.  I could 
probably hack that in coding some Pascal, but a whole grid type surface 
would be a tad much, I would think.

> Is Jack over the network  working with Linux?

Not sure


> X has a MIDI network option in core MIDI so maybe
> Ardour and OSX/Controler with VNC over WIFI could be cool.  For that
> matter, if we're looking at VNC and Ardour on OSX, the earlier MOTU
> stuff, like the 2401 MK1 and a 1224 with the PCI 424 and a couple
> ADA8000s will give you what you need for not too much bread.  It should
> be noted that Ardour for OSX, while working great on my machine is still
> slightly not quite ready for prime time as the MIDI is somewhat
> difficult to get working and you have to run it on X11, though 2.0 will
> fix this, I hope.

I try to look for a simple diagram of components and include the software 
scenario in it.   As yet, I have not found adequate benefit for OSX over 
Slackware but a whole lot of folks trying to get OSX to integrate well with 
many things.  I do understand OSX networking to have some advantages for 
very dense network demands, i.e. cluster systems.


> Also, I've researched installing a touch screen to run ardour.  They
> tend to get pricey, but could be great as I'm leery of mousing around in
> a club.

With my affinity for multi-monitors, I can see VNC - touch screen being a 
whole new project!!  LOL.


Last... I have a couple of 600 mghz servers to play with, before buying the 
real thing.  They report having 256 meg of RAM available so I should be able 
to launch Ardour no problem and then see what I can get away with just on 
dual stereo cards. How much processor demand occurs has a lot to do with 
cards and effects, I know and it takes clock cycles for each channel per 
affects module.    Any thoughts on that approach or has anyone benchmarked 
recommendations for horsepower per channel, even roughly?

Thank you for your comments Matthew.

Mike


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ardour-dev-bounces at lists.ardour.org
> [mailto:ardour-dev-bounces at lists.ardour.org] On Behalf Of Wolfgang Woehl
> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:27 AM
> To: ardour-dev at lists.ardour.org
> Subject: Re: [ardour-dev] Live Mixdown
>
> "Urbansound" <urbansound at sbcglobal.net>:
>> My desire is to consider Ardour in a live, 32 channel, audio control
>> system in a small entertainment house, extending real inputs as low
>> impedance XLR type microphone inputs and high impedance instrument
>> inputs.  The output side would be 4 channels out to discrete monitor
>> channels and 3 channels main output to main amp, (main = Left/Right,
>> plus sub-woofer).