[ardour-dev] Proposed editing mode, for users with heavy editing needs

AES_24_96 pipelineaudio at hotmail.com
Mon Oct 17 08:37:28 PDT 2005

Thank you very much for the reply! I learned a lot of new stuff from it :)

vanDongen/Gilcher <gml <at> xs4all.nl> writes:

> I am sending a copy to ardour-users, since the discusion is about
> useability.
> On Monday 17 October 2005 09:24, AES_24_96 wrote:
> > edit mode
> >
> > I propose an edit mode or maybe its a mouse mode that would
> > allow editing tasks to be performed with MUCH higher speed
> > and quite a few less keystrokes. A similar scheme has been used
> > before to create an app with exponentially less clicks and
> > keystrokes to perform many editing tasks than any other.
> >
> There are some good ideas in this proposal, but it also seems that 
>you are> unaware of a lot the shortcuts and modes allready present 
>in Ardour.> Look at http://www.ardour.org/manual
> And especially the part on keyboard and mouse bindings.
> There is also a large number of people who are (used to) working
> on Macs who have a different idea of the conventions.

True, maybe this should be called "windows mode". It should not 
change the waycurrent users normally use the app, this would 
be separate somehow.

> > In this mode, playback cursor and edit cursor would be
> > one and the same, a VERY skinny line that drops, and stays
> > wherever you left click the mouse in the edit window, either
> > on the ruler or on a region itself.
> >
> I agree that the playback and edit cursor could appear thinner.
> But are you aware that pressing p will place the playhead and
> pressing e will place the edit cursor on the mouse position.

At least three times as much clicking/keying as you would 
normally have to do, this mode is to speed up the editing process.
Windows only app users are notalways enamored of separate cursors,
and certainly for editing, a separate playback cursor can be an
awful hinderance.

> > Windows type conventions would apply to the selection process.
> > Click a region, then shift click another region, and those two
> > regions plus any region in between would be selected. click a
> > region and control click another region for selecting non
> > contiguous regions, 
> For continous selecion use rubberband selection. I you start 
> outside of an audio region click drag will automatically give
>you a selection rectangle. To start a rubberband selection inside
>a region use ctrl-alt-click drag.

The rubberband wont always work, as you could be packed into
some regions where you wouldnt be able to select regions without
accidentally moving or selecting regions you dont want affected.
The rubberband tool is welcome, and implemented in certain apps
alongside these other two ways of selecting without a problem

> > Click a fader and shift click
> > or control click another fader to move multiple faders at once.
> >
> This is a good idea, in some form or another. Maybe the mixer-strip
>selection can form a temporary mix group. Select multiple mixer 
>strips and all actions are taken on all selected
> > Simple stuff, some of which Ardour already has, m to drop a
> > marker, s to split, r after making a range selection to define a
> > storable range. "g" groups all selected regions together,
> > whether on the same track or not, u ungroups selected regions.
> >
> Not sure what you mean. A selection of regions allready act as
> a single thing for almost all operations on a single region of
> the selection. As I am trying this out, I see that there are
> some bugs here, but the basic functionality is there.

These would be permanent groups

> > Let me flesh some of these out a bit. For grouping, all grouped
> > tracks would be moved as one of them is, either in time or
> > between tracks. As groups overlap each other they would be
> > auto-crossfaded where relevant, according to the already
> > excellent Ardour autocrossfade options. 
> Already implemented.


> > Very importantly, 
> > there would be a "overide group" button in the Ardour menu
> > bar, to perform actions on regions without bothering other
> > regions grouped with them. Turning the button off would
> > restore the group action.
> >
> Ok, this is different. Right now you have to unselect. What you
> want is a more like a named and persisten selection. That could
> a good feature. Maybe the chunks can be fleshed out a bit to
> work more in this direction.
> > Splits can be made in several ways. Clicking on a region and
> > hitting s will split right where the cursor sits. Clicking in a
> >  trackspace without a region in it, or along the ruler then hitting
> >  s will split all regions under the cursor.
> Alt-s will split selected regions at the editcursor

an extra keystroke

> >  Dragging a range 
> > along the ruler then hitting s will put a split at the very
> > beginning and end of the selected range.
> In range mode there is already the context menu action
> "seperate region". This will work for a range across multiple
> tracks. alt-click inside a range will make a new region of the
> range on top of the underlying (bigger) region, but only works
> for the region the mouse is on. This is a bug I think.

mode? Sounds like extra keys/clicks to change modes

> > Region editing would be similar to the way ardour is now.
> > Resize by clicking and dragging on edges (would group with
> > groups and selections).
>  The resize bar at the bottom of the regions works like that.
> You can also directly click on it to trim without dragging.
> > Control-click and drag on edges will 
> > time stretch or time compress, also groupable with groups and
> > selections.
> Timefx mode is a single keystroke away.

Another mode?

> > Click dragging on the top edges of either side will 
> >  control the fade in or fade out handle, same as now. Click
> >  dragging on the very top middle area of a region would control
> > a per region volume trim. Right clicking a region will bring up
> > a menu including things like reverse region, and open copy of
> > region in audio editor.
> Have a look at the context menu that is already there.
> And have a look at gain mode. In ardour you can create independent
> gain envelopes per region

Yet another mode?

> >
> > Mouse wheel editing would be somewhat different. With no
> > modifier, scrolling the wheel will zoom time in and out,
> > keeping the zooming centered around the cursor. In the event
> > that zooming goes too far to keep centered, it will go back to
> > the cursor center upon zooming back in.
> >
> Right now you have to switch to zoom mode , also a single keystroke
> for the wheel to work like that.
> You can also directly drag or wheel in the zoom-range clock
> to set. The zoom focus can be set by keyboard shortcuts, the default
> is that only the playhead focus is bound.

Another mode still? Another keystroke for the wheel to work like that?
Keyboarding to set a focus is extra clicks. In this mode there
wouldnt be a separate playhead anyway

> > Snapping: Right clicking the "snap to" button brings up a speed
> > menu where you can select whether to snap to ruler marks
> > ( as defined in the ruler speed menu), time, SMPTE,
> > measures, half notes, quarter notes, 8th notes, 16th notes,
> > 32nd notes, 64th notes and 128th notes). Holding shift while
> > dragging a region overrides snapping. The "show grid" next to
> > the snapping button will show a grid *VISIBLE THROUGH
> > REGIONS* with its points set according to the "snap to"
> > speed menu.
> >
> There is the little downward arrow at the side of the snapsettings
> that brings up exactly this. The ignore snap key is defined in the
> options under keyboard/mouse, defaulting to mod3. You can set it
> to shift if you want. 


> > Time display: Somewhere on ardour will be a time details
> > screen. Top bar will show the timestamp of the beginning of a
> > range selection. In the event of no range selection, this will
> > show the timestamp at the cursor. The middle bar will show
> > the timestamp at the end of the range selection. The bottom
> > bar will show the duration of the range selection. The main
> > time display as Ardour has now can be right clicked. In the
> > speed menu that pops up, you can select between SMPTE,
> > MTC, time(hour, minutes, seconds, miliseconds), samples,
> > and musical time( measures, quarter notes, 8th notes, etc...).
> > Separately the ruler can also be right clicked to display the
> > same options.
> >
> The only thing missing is the range start and end clock.
> Everything else is already implemented. Right click in the area
> to the left of the rulers to select which rulers to show. Right
> click on any of the clocks to select to type of time display.
> The main problem is a layout/screen real-estate one I think.

There is an app that has everything I propose here, and actually a
more open real estate in many cases, along with easier viewability,
even though the track header area also has horizontal pan, faders,
phase, inserts, fx send, group routing, and record input select.


This is a link to the vegas manual with lots of good pictures for
this type of layout. Although there is a separate mixer window,
it hardly ever gets used and most users dont even have the mixer
window enabled

> > More to come, but I think with these basics ardour would be
> > more than workable for those of Linux Noobs us who have
> > been abandoned by our parent software company.
> >
> > I know it sounds like a lot, but I think this would certainly
> > result in many fewer commands to accomplish the same
> > actions we have now, and actually be simpler to work with
> > and use.
> >
> Basically a lot can be learned from reading the manual and 
> trying things out. A rude person would say RTFM.
> But the response would be, sure but make the manual accurate
> and complete.
> cheers 
> Gerard

I need to go through the manual some more thats for sure. Actually
first I better understand jack better. Im a total linux noob

The changes I propose are to make an editing mode that not only
simplifies use, but needs MANY fewer keystrokes and mouse clicks
to do the needed functions. I dont want to kill whats there.
I DO have an ulterior motvie. We users of Sony/Sonic Foundry apps
have been pretty much abandoned. Our friends the Sonar and 
Samplitude users are terrified of the upcoming Vista. We need a 
home, but most of the guys do not want to use a macintosh style app,
or theyd be running cubendo on the pc. Theyre already hesitant about
coming to linux as they will miss their favorite plugs, but I think
that can be rectified, but the more reasons for them to come the

Also I think many current users would appreciate the all in one 
tool for editing. 

I am going to make a key binding setup to come as close as I can
to what I need. Any chance I can make the left mouse button drop both
edit and playhead cursor at once?

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